S 4 EP 3: Creating Successful Partnerships between Schools and After-School Programs feat. Utah Afterschool Network

J. Lee: 0:10

Hello, hello everyone, welcome to school after hours podcast. But we talk about all things related to out of school time programming and education. I am your host, jay Lee, and on today's show we have the wonderful Utah at school network here with us. We have their wonderful leaders and we're going to be diving into the conversation of program and school alignment. Yes, and it's coming just in time just in time for the new school year. So get your pens, get your pads, go ahead and take notes and join us at the conversation table. All right, so here you are, happy to see your faces. Thank you so much for being here. So let's go ahead and take a moment for each individual to go ahead and introduce themselves, and we could go ahead and start with giving your name, the position that you have in the organization that you work for, but also give a little fun fact about yourself. Go ahead, let's start you, ben.

Ben: 1:06

Okay, cool. So my name is Ben Trenzelman. I'm the executive director with Utah after school network and I am a lifelong musician. I like to play the drums and guitar and piano and shared that with kids in the after school programs I've gotten to work with over the years as well.

J. Lee: 1:23

Nice. All right, lisa. How about you?

Lisa: 1:27

Hi, I'm Lisa Wisham with the Utah Education Policy Center at the University of Utah. And something about myself. I think I am a cowgirl at heart. I love farms, country music, westerns, so that's a little something about me.

J. Lee: 1:50

Ooh nice, all right, thank you Lisa. How about you, lauren?

Lauren: 1:55

Hi, I'm Lauren LaWorson. I am the school day alignment and data specialist at the Utah after school network. Fun fact about me is I'm a big fan of the show Survivor Really any reality TV but I have watched Survivor since I was a little girl and still do.

J. Lee: 2:15

Oh okay, you are a dedicated fan. I support it.

Lauren: 2:19

I'm a good go on survivor. I 100% would. But I could not leave my kids for that long. I'd feel too bad.

J. Lee: 2:27

Oh, I'd miss them a lot. I'm sure they'd miss you too. All right, everybody, let's go ahead and jump into our community corner. Community corner is a segment of the show that allows guests on myself to share tips, advice or information on a specific topic with young people, families or community members. Without further ado, let's go ahead and get into our community corner conversation. So my community corner for our guest today is what are some red flags parents should be aware of before they register their child into a program? Okay, let's go and reverse. Let's start with Lauren, then go to Lisa, then go to Ben. Ooh.

Lauren: 3:09

I'm going to keep it school day alignment themed and I'm going to say, if parents are noticing that the vibe is off between their afterschool program and the school that their youth attends, I'd say that's a red flag.

J. Lee: 3:24

Good one. How about you, Lisa?

Lisa: 3:27

Hi. I think that the parents making sure that the programs are high quality, perhaps having some longevity not to say that new programs could not be outstanding, but longevity with programs, how long the staff have been there. Are the staff part of the school day? Teachers Is there, just like Lauren said, is there some connection to the school day? I think those are important points to highlight.

J. Lee: 4:00

Good one, Good one. How about you Ben?

Ben: 4:03

So the first thing that comes to mind for me is how that program communicates with the community and parents and families. If that program cannot clearly respond to requests from parents, if that's not happening in a timely manner, if they don't have things for you like a calendar, an event or a schedule, those are all big red flags. If they don't have a schedule and that structure, that program is probably going to suffer.

J. Lee: 4:34

Good thing. Good thing Because oftentimes, what I try to stress to everyone else, or with even the people that I work with, before school happens or before a program even starts, within your first newsletter, it should be your calendar. You should at least have your first month planned out to see what you want to do and how everything is going to go, and then from there roll them out each month, but essentially, having a theme that you're following, that you could go ahead and just go ahead and plan to give to parents so they know what's going on and when it's going on, especially the school events within the first month. Yeah, awesome, all right, everybody, we are going to go ahead and jump into our interview questions. Yeah, all right. So today we are talking about school and program alignment and why it is so important. Now, sometimes I know, when we walk into programming, it's important for us to look for the connection between how things run during the day as well as what it looks like after school time as well, and see how they're functioning together. Sometimes we do not always see that collaboration, in that partnership within school and after school programming. But we're having this conversation to inform people what are some ways that could better collaborate with each other in that space, being that you're serving the same children, right. So to dive into this topic and to have this conversation, I wanted to start us off with first asking what is program and school alignment and why is it important?

Lauren: 6:05

So we at the Utah Afterschool Network define school day alignment as the level of coordination and collaboration between school day and after school program teams and we use what we call the five pillars that's totally self-named of school day alignment and those five are relationships, policy, shared resources, student needs and academics. So we believe that those five pillars you can use as a guideposts to make sure that you are fully coordinated and collaborated between your school day and after school program team.

J. Lee: 6:46

So for collaboration between the school and at school programming. Why should it be important for them to work together in that sense? Instead of you know as you're walking in, you see something completely different. You know a different culture in after school programming than you see during the day, or vice versa.

Lauren: 7:04

I think about this in a couple of different buckets. So when I think about how aligning with the school day impacts the youth in your program, we know that by kind of collaborating and coordinating with the school day and building that bridge between the two, that the youth in your program are going to have more meaningful academic learning, meaning that they'll have a little bit of an extension with what's happening during the school day and just provide a deeper learning environment for them. That might be beneficial to them as their learning style Maybe they're more of an active learner and after school really caters to that type of learner. We know from research to that youth can have an increased performance in literacy, math and other academic areas if they're participating in after school and I should say, a high quality aligned after school program, what's happening during the school day. And the second thing that I think about when I think about school day alignment and how it benefits everybody I think that by aligning with the school day you're really helping the school to shine too, because not only are you increasing or enhancing academic achievement of the youth in your program but you're maybe increasing communication between the school and the parents as acting kind of like that third party or just an added source of support for families. I think going along with that you can increase parental involvement. So by you hosting, maybe, events at the school and parents feel really comfortable coming to your out of school time program, you can build those connections with the school day. I think a lot about staff members who maybe work during the school day as a paraprofessional or a substitute teacher and how much you are able to provide leadership opportunities for those staff members out of school time and just give them more experience in general. And last thing I'd say maybe is just sharing expertise, educator expertise between your out of school time program and the school day. There's nothing better than working together. You can quote me on that.

J. Lee: 9:17

I know that's right, something that comes to mind as you're going through the levels of importance of each thing I think about when you say shared resources. I think about planning events. If you all are hosting an event for out of school time programming or even hosting an event for the school day, working together to kind of meet those needs and meet those goals, because, as out of school time programming, there are certain the number of events that we're supposed to host or have throughout the year. So why not collaborate to make the burden less on both of our parts if we work together to get something like that done? But also this is my question for you, lisa what role does policy play in school and after school program alignment?

Lisa: 10:06

I think it plays a really important role. One benefit of alignment is that program teams could take a look at their district and school policies and align their out of school time policies with them. For example, schools that have designed a school improvement plan with specific goals for the school Out of school time programs could, for lack of a better term, do their homework, find the school improvement plan and be able to identify and align areas that their activities and services support on the school improvement plan and then approach the school administrators or the district administrators and say here's how we can contribute. Here's how we can contribute to the school being successful with the school-wide goals for the year. Another tricky policy piece for program and school alignment is the idea of data. Utah, just like every other state I'm sure, has strong data privacy protections and policies in place, and we want to honor that and make sure that we're not asking or encouraging program teams to ask the schools for any identifiable data, and so I think that's a piece that we're coaching programs at. What data do you really need? Would aggregate data be all sufficient to show momentum towards your program goals, as opposed to individual student data? Because we certainly don't want programs approaching schools or district about data and then alienating themselves because the district isn't able to give that to them.

J. Lee: 12:02

Ooh, that's a good one, lisa. That's a good one because I know, in collecting that data, not focusing on individual children but focusing on the demographic itself is more beneficial, because you don't want to single anyone out Exactly. Yes, how can programs begin to have those conversations with their school? What are some things in pulling data? What should they look for? Should they ask for that it's individual student data? Perfectly fine, completely get it. But for the school and for the program itself to complete or achieve whichever goal they're trying to achieve, what are some things that they should ask for as far as data is concerned?

Lisa: 12:43

Well, I think one of the things that's really helpful is studying and recognizing how much out of school time program attendance can lead to school day attendance and that is something I think in the aggregate it's very easy to study that. So, I would say, looking at attendance data, but also working with the individual teachers. If there's a teacher that has a number of students from there thinking about an elementary school classroom, maybe they have a handful of students attending the out of school time program. So, looking at reading levels, looking at math levels, having those conversations with teachers to say how can I support you? I know that you're working on reading fluency with these students. So maybe, without giving the individual data, share with me some strategies that I can use in the out of school time program so that students can be more successful in the classroom.

J. Lee: 13:54

Good, anyone want to add to that?

Lauren: 13:57

I think that was great. Lisa, that's exactly what I would say. I'd say sometimes the best data that you're going to get is just in those sometimes walk and talk conversations that you're having with teachers or principal, as you're, you know, like walking to lunch together or walking to the teachers lunch together and just having those organic conversations about the youth that are in your program. I think the things that you need to know are going to come up and use that data in a really smart way to guide, I'd say, any part of your program. I was thinking academically especially.

Lisa: 14:35

Yeah, yes, go ahead, lisa. I was going to say the students themselves too. Having those informal conversations with students to say how are you doing in math, what do you like about math, what do you struggle with? Not to say you know what was your rise test score in math last year? Yeah, but more you know. Tell me what you like and what you don't like and how we might be able to support you in the out of school time program. I think sometimes students can give us so much information if we take the time to invest in relationship building with them.

Ben: 15:13

And to add to the conversation. So I'm part of another coalition that's looking at addressing some student needs in a couple areas around Salt Lake City and one of the things that we did that was really impactful for our group was going to a area middle school and meeting with the counseling team there to really talk about what are the things that students are identifying, what are some of the biggest concerns that you're seeing here? Where are some of the biggest gaps in support that students and families are receiving here? And they were really happy to talk about those things. I feel like, as you're building relationships within schools, sometimes there can be some hurdles as you're working to establish a relationship with the administration, but a lot of times it can be a little bit easier. They can also have a little bit more time and flexibility as you're working with some of the other faculty around the school to talk about what are you seeing, what are the needs, what gaps can this program fill in? What you're trying to address the most? And really you know those counselors are hearing about academic, social and emotional, mental wellness all number of different issues and they were able to have a really good, candid conversation with us about exactly what they were seeing there.

J. Lee: 16:33

Thank you, Ben, and I believe that connects us to student needs. Knowing what your students may need and relying on those relationships that you make with the school, that's what makes that bridge or that collaboration so important. So, to follow what you said, Ben, or to ask my additional question is who are some of the people, who are some of the key people that you need to keep in mind when building relationships within the school?

Lauren: 16:59

We could. The list goes on and on. You could start with your principal, vice principal, school counselor. I always recommend those working at the front desk or in the front office. They are the actual key to the school. Sometimes. I think the custodian is a really important one too, as you're talking about having access to shared spaces and resources, teachers, of course, getting like paraprofessionals on your team, especially if you're struggling with staffing. A lot of them would love to spend some extra time after school with those kids, and then one maybe. I find that the PTA president is also a really good one, because they tend to have really rock solid relationships with pretty much everybody in the school, and if you can get them in your corner, you never know who might be an afterschool champion at your school.

Ben: 17:53

I know that's right.

J. Lee: 17:53

I support the PTA.

Ben: 17:55

Yeah, and along the lines of the PTA, a lot of schools also have like school and community councils that will be inclusive of community partners parents, educators, faculty as well and so those are great groups to get involved in. And something that I always think is really important when you're building relationships in school is you want to spread a really wide net. I know in around Utah our principals have a high turnover rate. They move from school to school pretty rapidly and so you may have a relationship with the principal that's really great for two or three years and then they move on to another school or another opportunity or something like that, and so then you're starting fresh with the new principal and so if that's where you put all your eggs, then you're starting all over again. And so I found, you know, when I've worked with schools, I love to spend time in the faculty lounge around lunchtime. I'd go in and I'd have lunch with the teachers and build relationships with them, ask them for advice on different kids, ask for help in our programs, and so I always had a really tight network with the teachers and the custodian and the lunchroom crew and everything. So if a new principal came in, I had all of these people in the school that could vouch for our program, and the same as other relationships came into this scenario. I remember one school I was with. They hired a social worker, which was really great, and a bunch of the faculty in the school were immediately like you really should go and talk to the after school program because they have these relationships with their parents. They're already doing these community events with students in the school. They're making a lot of the connections that you should be able to follow up on really clearly.

J. Lee: 19:38

Are you a program director or thinking of starting a program? Maybe you need new curriculum that focuses on character development or technical skills. Maybe you need help establishing effective program logistics to have an impactful program culture or, overall, you just need a program evaluation. Well, school after hours consulting case. Here to help Contact us at schoolafterhourscom and our contact information is in the show notes. Hope to hear from you soon. My additional question is for student needs. The one of the pillars that you talk about is how do you begin to assess student needs and building that relationship with the school and the after school program? Because I'll be the first one to tell you how the kids act during the day is not necessarily how they act during after school.

Ben: 20:30

Yeah, that can definitely. That can definitely be the case, you know, I mean, and so some of the things that I'd recommend are, you know, looking at what other data is around there that's related to the kids that are in that area. If there are any risk assessments that you can get access to, that can be very telling of what, what is happening outside of the school day for those kids, and issues that you can be addressing. Again, some of those relationships that you're able to build with the faculty can be very telling if they trust you enough to talk about the issues that they're experiencing during the day. I found that in building relationships, teachers were really more than happy if you went in and were like, hey, I'm working with Toby after school and I've had some concerns, what's being effective in the strategies that you're working on to support his behavior, or if you notice these things as well, and they're usually more than happy to say, oh yeah, it's this and this and I do this and this positive reinforcement is really effective and I worked out this plan with his parents and so you should talk to them too. So all three of us are doing this thing, the same thing, together. I think can be really effective.

J. Lee: 21:39

Mm, hmm.

Lauren: 21:40

Can I add, ben I, just what I'm hearing from what you're saying to that I know to be true is that it has to be two way. It's a parent communication and it has to be consistent, because if it's just one, for example the after school program, that's consistently going to the school and saying we have this concern, we see this behavior, what about this? This academic component of the students life and the school you know ignores it. Or or vice versa, the schools coming to you and expressing a concern that you're maybe not hearing out all the way through and not following through with. It's really hard to build the trust necessary to meet student needs. There's just no way that you can fully meet your youth's needs if you're not consistently communicating and meeting regularly regarding the students in your program and at school.

J. Lee: 22:38

Mm. Hmm, that's good, lisa. I do have a question for you concerning that. Like when it comes to pulling data around improvement on behavior, how do we begin to assess that within school day and out?

Lisa: 22:55

of school time programming data and information. I suggest starting with the central office and finding out about the number of office referrals, for example, finding out the aggregate number of office referrals in a day, in a week, and then, you know, seeing, maybe sharing with the principal If the principal's not aware of the regular attendees to the out of school time program, seeing if any of those students are some of the heavy hitters for the office referrals and going from there and then again conversations with teachers, conversations with the students themselves. You know seeing, really observing their behavior, sometimes observing their behavior during the school day. I don't know of an administrator that would turn down the opportunity, if, if a out of school time coordinator approached the principal and said would it be okay every couple weeks if I come in and observe lunch and recess and just to get some, some qualitative data for our out of school time program, how we can best support the students. And I think that is a great way. A lot of times we think of data as test scores and grades and attendance numbers, but that qualitative data, through observations and talking with students and families and teachers, is so critical.

J. Lee: 24:30

Good stuff.

Ben: 24:30

Good stuff, and something that I think is important to mention there too is a lot of the things that we've discussed are things that come to mind most for like a school based program, but we also have a lot of community based programs where there can also be more hurdles, and in being able to make some of these relationships and being able to make some of these contacts and things like that, and so some things that I was able to do even in running programs to get to some of these inroads, to even be able to observe kids and things like that is, I had when I was running a boys and girls club program and there were two neighboring schools that were nearby, some inroads that were really easy, that they were excited for me to come in and to help out with, was coming in and facilitating structured recesses, and so I was able to come in and do activities because they were concerned about some of the behaviors they were seeing. At that time. The teachers were really stretched as being far as being playground monitors, and so I was able to come in and lead some really great games and that was great because then the teachers and the faculty and administration all saw how I was interacting with them. I was able to start building relationships to those teachers and things like that. And on a similar note, another school there were two schools that were within walking distance of my program and the other one was organizing a like a walking train for kids as they were living school, and so I'd walk over to the school at the end of every day and I'd walk with the line of like 30 kids. Some of them were coming to my program and some of them just lived along the way, and so I had all these kids that I'd get to observe in this really informal arena. And again, it was one of those things where I was demonstrating in school that I was willing to take the time to ensure that these kids were being safe and looking after the community and making sure that the parents had a positive reception, because the parents didn't know if I was with the club or if I was with the school, but they knew that there was this adult that would walk with this whole train of kids home every day and would kind of deter the one crazy guy that liked to harass the kids and just made everyone feel good about the whole scene and everything like that. And so those were really great avenues to give me some inroads, to start building those relationships and to meet a demand that the schools had, because there are times when you go in and I even, you know, sadly, had one school that I worked with, where we went they invited us to one of their beginning of your faculty meetings and one of my staff stood up and it was a particularly challenging neighborhood in a challenging school and one of my staff stood up and said, hey, we'd like to be able to coordinate with you or to be able to help your kids that are struggling. And some of the teachers in the faculty room like laugh about that because they felt it was kind of hopeless and we were really disturbed by that, and so we knew that we had to explore some other avenues that were that seem more plausible, that seem like lower hanging fruit for us to start moving up from there, and that was really helpful to take those different approaches.

J. Lee: 27:32

Right, and thank you for that, because, resource, when we think of resources, we don't always think of people as resources. Yeah, we mostly think of things as resources, and I think you bring up a valuable point, then, about being doing an inventory of who has access to you, or who has access to your school and your children, and who could help in your space to accomplish those goals. Which also brings me to my next question of resources. Right, one of the things, one of the pillars how do you do an inventory of your resources between the school that you serve as a school time program, but also within your network of people in relationships?

Lauren: 28:15

Well, I'm so glad that you brought that up, ben. There's community spaces, who you know don't? They're not operating under the same roof as the school, so they have a little bit of a challenge. But I love too that you brought up Janice, that it's okay if your resource doesn't look like a tangible item or something that you physically share with each other. That it's, I think, of utmost importance that you have shared language, maybe between your program and school, and that shared language is not an us versus them mentality, that it's really like we are sharing youth together and they're under our care, whether they're at school or in the out-of-school time program. The other things that I like best practices maybe, I'd say is if you are within a school, I think you can analyze where you're at and how integrated you are with shared spaces. If you're looking at how much independent access you have to rooms and spaces within the school, even like best case scenarios, that you have your own space, maybe your own classroom or a relocatable like portable classroom on the outside we have a lot of those in Utah that also you have a mutual understanding of how to use those spaces if it's not your own space necessarily, so that you understand how to clean up and take down and where to put things away. I remember us putting away tables like folding up tables and doing it what we thought was so perfect and nicely in the cafeteria in after school and the principal coming to me the next day and saying you can't line them up vertically along the wall, they have to be horizontally along the wall. It's really important that you do that and following through with those things too right, because that communicates respect to whoever owns and utilizes those spaces. I also think if you have most of the spaces within the school available to you, that's key. If you only have one little classroom or you only can use the cafeteria for everything that you're doing in your out of school time program, I think there's room to grow. And then I would also say like, if maybe you're struggling a little bit, I love that we've talked so much about sharing staff and personnel. I loved Ben's thought I've never heard that from you, ben about going in as a community program coordinator, going into the school and running recess for them or just offering yourself up so that they know you more than just a tiny picture on an email that they get once a month trying to reach out to them. I love that idea. I'm going to share that with programs this year. If you're able to even have like joint professional development opportunities or share mental health resources or attend each other's family nights, just making sure that they put a name to the face, you'd be surprised at how quickly that trust gets built and then those spaces become available to you once you do those things. But I think it takes to something that I'm thinking about sitting here. You can't be necessarily very shy about this process. You really have to step out, and I'm kind of an introverted gal and it takes a lot for me to step out of my bubble and I remember it taking so much for me to reach out and stop in the hallway instead of just keeping my head down and walking straight to my office. But amongst all of these pillars that we're talking about you have, I think the common theme is that you have to get out of your bubble. You have to talk to those around you and you have to take your presence known in the school. You can't hide, can't hide away.

J. Lee: 31:49

I know that's right. Well, everyone. That brings us to the end of our interview portion, but we're not done yet. We're going to go ahead and jump into our professionals lounge. Professionals lounge is a segment of the show that allows guests to share advice with other practitioners in the OST and youth development field about how they can begin growing their gifts and talents, but also develop themselves as professionals in the field. Here's our professionals lounge conversation. So, everyone, my professionals lounge question for you is what is one piece of advice you would give anyone going through this process of aligning their school and the program so they could go ahead and accomplish their yearly goal? What advice would you give that individual who wants to go first?

Ben: 32:39

Yeah, go for it.

Lauren: 32:40

Okay I. What I tell programs that I work with almost every time I meet with them is that school day alignment is a marathon, not a sprint. It's not a 5K race, it is the full marathon. It takes time. It may take a couple of years for you to feel like you're fully integrated into the school I would say, especially so if you're community school. But it's well worth the time and effort that you put into it.

Ben: 33:10

Yeah, and something that comes to mind for me is I think one of the big hurdles that after school providers have in building these relationships is feeling like they have an air of legitimacy to bring to the table. I think that they can be perceived as inexperienced sometimes or young, and so there are tools, field wide tools and resources that are available that I think if you bring those to the table to share with the administration and the school and faculty in the school, then they understand that it's a bigger picture and that you're not just you know giving kids dodgeballs to hook at one another, but you actually have intention and design and structure and how you're running your program. And so I know in Utah and many other states we have a quality self-assessment tool. That is a tool that talks about all of the best practices in running an after school program and keeping themselves safe and building relationships, creating positive learning structures and making sure that you have every, all of your administrative ducks in a row as well, and so that's something that I've taken to principles and I've gone through that process of sharing that type of thing with them. And so then they know that there's intention in the design of your program and that you're not just flying by the seat of your pants and that it's part of something that is larger than just your program as well, and that you want to infuse additional structure into their school and you're not just unleashing these chaotic gates and letting the kids run loose and everything like that, and I think that brings them a lot of relief and, again to what we just talked about, helps them understand that there are shared resources and other things that you each have to offer one another, or maybe some holes that you identify in that process that they can help to fill. Or maybe in them understanding the best practices you're engaged in, there are some holes that they have that you can fill as well, so I think that's really important Awesome.

J. Lee: 35:03

Lisa.

Lisa: 35:06

Mine is kind of a addresses both Lawrence and Ben's suggestions. When we think about starting new relationships we need to recognize, as Lawrence said, it is a marathon. Things aren't going to happen overnight. But what are some quick wins we can make as you're trying to get to know the school administrators what's their favorite drink? Does the principal love a Diet Coke? Do you want to put a Diet Coke on the principal's desk one day and just say I know how hard you're working. Thanks for everything you do for the students here. If we're trying to get in the door with parent-teacher conferences, for example, it's not going to be automatic that we have a space at the table. I don't think it'll be automatic. But how about the OST staff offer to do provide some childcare for the family so that they can attend the parent-teacher conferences, and then maybe over time we will get that seat at the table. But it's all about building relationships and I think in the early stages it's about what can I do for you, how can I support you? And if we have that attitude as an OST team, I think we'll start to see some progress.

J. Lee: 36:25

Nice, good one, good one. I like that one. I really really like them. I like all of them actually, well, everyone. With that being said, it brings us to the end of our show. I saw it. It was so, so good. But go ahead and give them your information. So if they want to get more information and get in touch with you or maybe collaborate, you know I support, you know across my collaboration from state to state, from country to country, so how can they get in touch with you if they want to get some more information on partner?

Ben: 36:53

Yeah, absolutely, and we partner with a number of different states all the time and we're more than happy to share any of our resources. We're the Utah After School Network. Our website is utahafterschoolorg. We're also on all of the social media platforms that you can find us on. We share all kinds of great stuff there and we have a quarterly newsletter that we send out that you can sign up for our website. So track us down in any of those areas and we're more than happy to chat and share anything that we've done.

J. Lee: 37:24

Well, everyone, that brings us to the end of our show. If you like what you heard and you enjoyed our conversation, make sure that you're following us on YouTube, but also hit that like button so we know what you are enjoying. You can also find us on other podcast platforms like Apple Podcasts, spotify and Google Podcasts. If you wanna listen to our audio version as well, to get more behind the scenes stuff, make sure that you're following us on our social media accounts Instagram and Facebook at schoolafterhours. Well, that's all I have for today, and the words of Mr Arthur Ashe start where you are, use what you have, do what you can. Until next time, y'all, goodbye.